Return on Your Investment with Sara Smith, MCC

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Keeping Agile Non-Denominational, Episode 25

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Alex Kudinov   Hello everybody. This is another episode of Tandem Coaching Academy's Keeping Agile Coaching Non-Denominational podcast. We are your hosts today, Cherie Silas and I, Alex Kudinov and today we have a special guest for you. This is Sara Smith. She's an MCC and beyond that, she is a 2020 Chair of the ICF Professional Coaches Board of Directors and a member of the International Coach Federation Family of Organizations. Welcome, Sarah and thank you for spending this time with us today.

Sara Smith   I am delighted to be here with you all.

Alex Kudinov   So and beyond this headline, this big headline, let's let's admit it, what else is important for our listeners to know about Sarah?

Sara Smith   You know, the reason why I'm really happy to be here is that I had the privilege of going through some coach training with a roomful of Agile coaches and Cherie was one of them and I didn't know anything about the Agile discipline. Over the course of five workshops, I really got to know and respected some wonderful professionals and we began to bring this notion of coaching, as I know it, and agile coaching, as you know it, bring those together to see how they complement each other and how they make professionals more valuable to clients; more hireable, if you will. I've had a real warm spot for the Agile disciplines and the use of the term in business now, by the way, you know everyone's a coach? Well, it's all right, everyone's agile too. You know it's gotten to be real, "It must be good. I'm that too" and I like the idea that we can spend a little time and clarify both sides of that so that we can help professionals be more professional in both of those disciplines.

Alex Kudinov   So it's always interesting to talk about two sides of coaching and, as you know, as you spend a lot of time with Agile coaches, Agile coaching is something different and you're familiar with Lisa Adkins and her model of Agile coaching, and that professional coaching is just kind of one piece on that model. However, if you move back to Agile coaching world, professional coaching was a little bit neglected; let me put it mildly.

Sara Smith   Sure!

Alex Kudinov   We were focusing on training and consulting on everything else that's going on but professional coaching was like, "Yeah it's hard and we don't know how to do that so let's kind of get it out of heart out of mind." So what do you see in professional coaching that absolutely will help agile world?

Sara Smith   You know, that's a great question, Alex, and the thing I love about that, is that I was in some training years ago, and the instructor said, "Come up with any problem in any project and 90% of the time it's people oriented. It's people don't communicate, it's people don't deliver, but there's always that personal element; it's not just the technology didn't get delivered. So if you think that almost every problem that a client comes to us with or that we deal with as a professional, there are people and relationships involved. It's just the nature of it.  Now, the separation between Agile -- the Agile model and coaching -- is that our clients pay us for results and some results are quicker to yield. Developing people? That's not the quickest results around. So we've got to balance between business results and people results because that 90% looms large if something's going wrong. It's typically people not wanting, people clashing, people not motivated, people who can't. So that people element is huge and that's what professional coaching deals with more in an aspirational sense; helping people reach their dreams and get better as opposed to fixing problems.

Alex Kudinov   So aspirations are good. We're all for aspirations and aspiring being better, faster, greater, and what's not and I can see how -- like delivery, Agile got its roots in software delivery, it grew out of that. It's easy to measure if you know what to measure. So how do you even start approaching measuring people development where professional coach kind of shines with its capabilities?

Sara Smith   You know that also a good question and one that we took on. When I use the term we I'm talking about the International Coaching Federation.  I've been a part of a global support, global volunteers for about 10 years and it was about probably 12 years ago that the organization got very, very serious about proving that very thing; figuring out how to academically, and with research, prove the value of people development.  Now, we're not the only ones doing it. If you look at John Kotter, and any number of business consultants, they work at doing the same thing. Harvard Business reviews had spent a lot more time on people than they do just processes. So we're in good company. The International Coaching Federation has invested a lot of time, and money, and partnerships; PricewaterhouseCoopers, Human Capital Institute, and others to develop the library of research that shows that coaching people has a return on investment and that it's significant. It's a building block. You coach people to be better. You create high performance organizations. High performance organizations outperform everyone else in the field. 10/12 years -- it takes a little time to prove that

Cherie Silas   It does and so what provoked them to say we've got to figure this out and get this information into the world?

Sara Smith   Great question because 25 years ago, when the ICF was created, coaching was considered touchy feely. Really nice to have soft, mushy stuff and what we had to do was to make it valuable, valid, business oriented, because being a life coach is one discipline of coaching. Being a business coach, or an executive coach, or a team coach...different discipline. So to make it a growth profession, to make it a professional profession, we had to get serious about fitting in the world of measurements and research, and provability, and we have some folk, who've now retired, who saw that and built that vision into the ICF back when it was just a sweet organization of 5000 people.

Cherie Silas   So ICF has done this research on kind of the theory of, 'Coaching is valuable. Coaching has a return on investment.'  I'm wondering what you can tell us about like, on a practical level, I go and I work with a client and they're like, "Yeah, why should I invest? What am I going to get out of this? How will I know we're successful?" How do I help them by figuring out how to measure return on investment for my services?

Sara Smith   The beginning place, and this is an answer for both clients and coaches, or Agile coaches and that is, "Let's look at the research. Let's look at how highly successful companies be highly successful." There's research out on the International Coaching Federation website over the last six and eight years, that pretty definitively prove that. It's not just our research. We know that people who are motivated, who believe they have the tools they need, and believe that the organization that they work for supports them are more effective. Burnout happens less; you get people's initiative. So we know that a good employee gets 30% more basically, if they're happy where they are and 70% of how happy you are, where you are, is how you feel about your boss. We started there, let's make bosses more champions of work and less generals of corporate organizations. Let's work with people instead of working through people. Does that make sense?

Cherie Silas   It does make sense and I think it leads me into my next question around. You mentioned high performing organizations. In the Agile world "high performance" is like...that's kind of the buzzwords. It's easy to say but people don't always even know what high performance means, and they're just talking about teams, you're saying a high performing organization's whole. Other than just slapping a label on it how do we know an organization is high performing?

Sara Smith   Yeah, that's, that's, I love that. Because as I was on the board of the ICF, and we learned a lot about the research that ICF was partnering with the Human Capital Institute, anybody who's in HR knows ACI, they're sort of the gold standard of, of HR research. We partnered with them. They have criteria for high performance in organizations tiered by the size of the companies, and the type of industries, and it's based on revenue market penetration. What does the company measure as success? A high performance organization is somebody who executes at above average on a majority of those counts for more than two years in a row. So it's very practical. If retention is important, that's it. If it's new product development, that's it. We have leaned on the Human Capital Institute for those numbers because that's what their membership tells them. That feeds into the, "What's the value of being a coach?" being a professional coach the way I'm talking about it. We work on that; we have evolved that over time too. If anybody looks at becoming a professional coach, understand that what we're doing is helping to teach people to work the most effectively with clients.  So what's emerged over the last three years, five years at the most, is a real melding of coaches. The things that we're learning through neuroscience, you know, brain science, what part of the brain works based on different conversations. If I am a command and control manager, and I tell people what to do, I am engaging their analytical part of the brain. There is no creativity there. There is list making. "You tell me what to do. I'll write it down and I'll do it and then I'll wait for the next thing you tell me to do. Simplifies it a lot but if instead of giving you a task list, I give you responsibility and say, "Here's the outcome I'd like for you to create. Go put together a plan, bring it back, and talk to me about it." Now I've engaged the creative side of their mind where creativity, and vision, and insight, and imagining occur and I'm inviting the whole brain of an employee to come and help that you ask why it's more valuable. It's that kind of input that we get from employees, when you have a coach like manager, that brings greater productivity to the organization. If all you do is tell people what to do, all they'll do is do what you tell them and so you have the creativity of one. If you have a team that co-creates, then you have creativity of the group. I love the look on your face. It's like, 'Wooooah"

Alex Kudinov   There's so many directions that we can go with that. You just kind of get you dug into this fertile ground of Agile, which we kind of keep talking about. I'm like "I can ask this, and this, and this." So first question, do you consider ICF a high performing organization?

Sara Smith   At times and parts of it. It's hard for any organization to be high performing in all elements at all times. Now, what you did is open the door to a really interesting discussion that I'll keep short. The beginning of 2020 we restructured the ICF. It's a grand experiment that's really beginning to work. We took all of the important elements of coaching and divided them into this family of organizations you talked about. I led professional coaches. That's the people who do the coaching. We established coaching in organizations to begin to build a community of organizations that use coaching. We spun off credentialing and standards. Let me use the term 'spun it off' very carefully. They're part of the family. They're still a part of the ICF but they are a part of the organization, like a department if you will, that owns the responsibility for research and creation of new credentials as well as moving current credentials forward. They also hold the responsibility of evolving the competencies. So getting high performance getting there we-- Oh! One of the parts was coach training. We have a part of the organization that's coach training. It has a Board of Directors of coaches who have coaching schools and organizations who use coaching schools to move that, evolve that, forward. So if you go to a coaching school, it's not teaching the same curriculum it did eight years ago. By the way, if you if you talk to a coach in school, ask them, because if they are teaching the same curriculum as eight years ago, find another school because it's growing. So we created six different organizations, each with a unique mission, all to run at the same time and work together. We use the term Agile a lot and we're working very hard to be Agile and integrated.

Alex Kudinov   Yeah. So that's helpful and I kind of get the picture. I'm on the board of Houston chapter. One things that we have these six logos, well, first of all, we need to replace the logos but now we have six colors. Which color do we use? That was fun exercise.

Sara Smith   Oh, absolutely.

Alex Kudinov   So beyond that, you said something. So yes, it's great. Coaching benefits, high performing organization, greatly so. We can show -- and I'm pretty sure ICF has a ton of material and ton of information and kind of go and dig that out. However, so in Agile world, we are somewhat used to you take two three day class, and you're an Agile Coach, or Scrum Master, or whatever that is, and ICF proposition is like, "You need 500 hours for PCC and you need 60 hours of this and that." So there's a lot of requirements and we know that it takes six months to a year to get somewhere. So how do you prospective coaches need to think about balancing the investment of time, resources, and everything else? Why would they go on this path?

Sara Smith   Success. They would go on this path if they want to be more successful. If you've ever gotten into hot water with a client, wouldn't it be nice to know more about relationships about how humans work to not get in hot water? That's a lot of what coaching and I can't tell you what all the core competencies are. Well, I could but I'm not going to. If you look at the core coaching competencies, how to work with a client, it's really about cutting through the niceties to create relationships that are valuable, honest and open really quickly. Now, that's like any other skill. If you want to be a graphic artist, you're not going to take a two day course and learn CAD; you're going to have to bring more to it. If you want to be a vet, a doctor, or anything -- any skilled position -- you've got to work at it. Same thing with coaching. You're working with people, with their heads, with their personalities. It's not for the faint of heart. It's good to get some training to know what's in there and how to step carefully. You know, coaches are really careful about 'not therapy'. By the way, I've been teaching doctors, physicians, how to be coaches and that's going to take off. My favorite client is a psychiatrist who's now a coach.

Alex Kudinov   Interesting.

Sara Smith   Uh huh and the clarity that she has around what is therapy, fixing human problems, and what is coaching, helping to imagine a future and help create it.

Alex Kudinov   So what I'm hearing is that when we talk about Agile coaching world and professional coaching world, professional coaching world, first of all, it's a little bit more mature than Agile coaching world and then it just a perception differently that -- you keep saying this word 'professional'. You actually said, 'Making a more professional professional and I don't think there's still an understanding of Agile craft, or Agile world, as that professional skills that you work through university program; you work through a rigorous process and you get accredited. It seems like -- well I mean, you've been on the board of ICF -- it seems like that ICF is the way to go with your credentialing. So why ICF?

Sara Smith   Let me go back and remember when you said that Agile coaching is very young, very new, still working through who you are and where you fit. Listen, I did 30 years with IBM before I became an external professional coach.  I understand a consultant going into an organization at a particular level, do you go in at mid management or do you go in higher? Where you go in is typically where you stay. If Agile coaching get you in at mid management project level, then you'll always be a pair of hands. If professional coaching ups your articulation game, return on investment, horizon have value in six months and greater value in three to five years. If you get that kind of focus on the work that you're doing now you go call on senior vice presidents and CEOs with confidence. Not some of that angels, you know, "Fools what rush in where angels fear to tread", not that. That's it.To be good at this -- I think of my colleagues that Cherie and I went through with and there was a distinction between those who dealt well with middle management and those who had trained higher and saw a bigger picture.

Cherie Silas   Yeah

Sara Smith   The discipline of coaching teaches you not from a process perspective but from a perspective -- how to see a bigger picture, how to see a broader horizon -- and it's a skill that serves you in every element. Now, I'm going to go back to the professional part. When I became a coach in IBM in 2001. That is forever ago, we had people in IBM that thought that coaches were shamans. Shamans, nice people, funny clothes, and sometimes at the ICF conference, they were. It was determined that if ICF was going to be an actual professional, we had to have research, we had to have scholarly work, we had to have relationship with business executives, we had to speak the language, and that if we did that business people would come to the ICF to be coaches. It's kind of like my psychiatrist who is now a coach. Coaching will attract professionals that raises the level of the profession. We got intentional about it.  We have a research department. One of the family organizations is a research-oriented, 'create the future of coaching' organization. So you bet we have our eye on professionalism and we have our eye on what will be next. Artificial intelligence, coaching the masses, all sorts of things. The numbers say that coaching in businesses of all size is growing by 35/50%. We're counting the kind of coaching that ICF calls professional development and it's explosive. Lots of people are training to be coaches, some do the $79 over the weekend version, they will not be as successful because they don't have the tools. I mean, the real world is tough and it requires mentoring, experience, lots of intelligence, creativity, and that's what the ICF is focused on so that professional coaches -- the organization I worked with -- our job is to help fund the research to open up the marketplace so our coaches can have a decent living.

Cherie Silas   So much in there, so much, and I'm so happy that you mentioned the, 'where you come in is where you stay', and that it's not just certification. It's the competency behind the certification. That's why a weekend class doesn't work. You can get stuff in your head, but there's a big shift between what you know and you can do.

Sara Smith   Oh, yeah.

Cherie Silas   So it brings me over to this space where knowing that, while professional coaching is professional, it's not regulated. This means anybody can slap coach on their forehead and there are plenty of coaches out there doing that. So what's the return on investment of, "Alright, so I'm doing this, I'm making however much an hour and then I have to go and invest time money effort into getting training, developing competency, to get this little gold star over here that says I'm ICF credentialed. What's the payoff for me?

Sara Smith   There are two payoffs. One is pragmatic. The ICF is working to get the term professional coach, ICF credentialed coach, accepted in the business world. We got a lot of marketing focused on that. I tell coaches, "Don't just call yourself coach. Call yourself an ICF credentialed coach. Be part of the marketing arm to move that idea forward. Let's have more NASAs, treasury department in the US, that say, "We hire coaches but we hire PCC and above. Now, again, they may not know what that means. But if it's a requirement, then you darn well better have the certification. By the way, the ICF has also built part of what you've probably experienced Alex, is the digital badging. We've now embraced digital badging to bring credibility to those who have an ICF credential. Here's my digital badge, click on it goes to a Credly site -- where did they come up with a name like Credly -- but it's it's a site that validates my credential. We've had problems for years with people saying, "Oh, I'm an MCC too. See there's the logo." Logos are new. Badges are new. They go to a legitimising site. That site's being used by lots of credentialing organizations, not just the ICF and HR organizations recognize it.That's important. So that's part of value. The other part of the value, which is really stronger, is that the professional has more capability and has more capability in that area of relationships, builds confidence...makes you a more credible professional. Identity for your client. If they say. "I want you to coach this person out of the business" then you say, "Hang on. Two things here. One is that moving people out of the business is your responsibility, not mine. The second thing is that coaching will help that individual either become a better employee or help them decide not to be there anymore. Better results. That takes time that takes-- we can't just take a magic wand. I do have a magic wand here somewhere. I have a sign that says, "Poof! My work here is done."

Alex Kudinov   Coaching question about magic wand gets me every time.

Sara Smith   If you had a magic wand

Cherie Silas   It's my most unfavorite question.

Sara Smith   Yeah.

Cherie Silas   Alright, so then I get in here. I'm a professional coach. I'm credentialed. I've got it made. So what's your opinion on self development once you've got that credential? Why would I continue to get education? There's this weird thing out there called Supervision? Why would I spend time and money on that? What's the value? What would you tell me?

Sara Smith   It's like any aspiring professional. Good enough two years ago is not good enough now. So we have a professional-- in fact, we updated the competencies two years ago, and the new coaching competencies have included professional development as one of the competencies. How do you measure that? Hopefully an individual will measure it in their own success. If you continue to develop, then you become better and better at what you do. I mentioned the neuroscience and how coaching is merging with neuroscience. If someone got their PCC five years ago and hasn't developed...they can't leverage that. If you don't know it, you can't leverage it. We are in an environment with the human condition that is evolving and getting better all the time. Now, how do we deal with people? How do we speak to them so that they hear possibilities versus pure negativism? How do we deal with artificial intelligence? By the way, AI can do a lot of Agile coaching work. They can it can do a lot of ACC, beginning coaching work. Artificial Intelligence can ask really good open ended questions but it can't work with people. It can't use intuition. It can't connect the dots the way people do. So beginning coaches, if all you do is stay a beginning coach, you're at risk because you can be replaced. You can I mean, one on many is the way to go now and electronically being one is even more popular. You've got to find a way to leverage your humanity. leverage your intelligence. So why would you sit on your credential? I don't think you should because the the profession will pass you by. It's moving too fast and it's just wise to keep up. By the way, members of the International Coaching Federation, if you're a member of the organization, you have access to communities of practice. Now, communities of practice aren't coffee clutches. We have 10 or 12, they're pretty significant, they are global, and you have access to all of them. They each meet once a quarter, different schedules. There's Supervision, there's executive coaching, there's coaching for HR executives, there's there's an interesting litany -- I belong to coaching in healthcare -- and they bring really powerful voices to the community of practices and there's a library of recordings. So there are lots of ways through the ICF to stay on top of your profession. That's that's like a ten pound answer to a three pound question

Cherie Silas   It's great. So when ICF redid the competencies, there's this kind of underlying piece here about Supervision without fully calling it out. I noticed in the team competencies that actually called out Supervision. In individual coaching competencies, it didn't. What's behind that?

Sara Smith   Supervision has been evolving. It actually comes out of psychology, social work, that area. They've had Supervisors and some coaches started bringing that discipline in probably five or eight years ago and somebody said, "Why doesn't the ICF have Supervision?" The ICF is that inclusive holding container. People create and then the ICF validates and creates certification and stuff. We rarely create it. Coaches created coaching before the ICF was around. So as it's been evolving, we've been embracing it. You can use Supervision and mentoring hours, either as your continuing credit or for your credentialing. So we feel in partnership with Supervision, as it's evolving. We've got some research going on, now, to validate what good Supervision is and eventually that will evolve into competencies and credentialing. We're doing team coaching first because that's where the marketplace is asking for that support. So, absolutely in line with it, you'll notice that Supervision is being embraced. I think there is a community of practice created this year or about to be created around Supervision. There are a lot of good senior coaches beginning to develop into Supervision and I tell you what, I have done some of that work and been the recipient of some of that work in the past. It keeps you out of the potholes that can ruin your business. A great Supervisor can help you not get in trouble, or get out of trouble if you happen to stumble into a bad situation. So it's like a partner in your practice.

Cherie Silas   So we actually started working with Supervision, doing Supervision and in working with people, and part of my vision here is to see Supervision really enter into the Agile space, because I think, a lot of benefit to Agile coaches, I'd like to hear your take on how Supervision can be valuable to Agile coaches into corporations who employ coaches.

Sara Smith   You know, it's, it's, the design is great, it's the implementation that counts. As I worked in services in IBM, and by the way we were new in it, relatively, when I was getting into it, the the big eight were much better at that. We learned from from our competition or compefriends, you know, Supervision is things like, have somebody read it for you before it goes out. Have somebody help you bounce off a challenging situation before you jump into it. Supervisory training actually, probably, roleplays. I haven't been through detailed Supervisory training but role plays challenging situations and puts you in situations where you're willing to look at yourself. As I think about -- by the way, I'm an extrovert so I think with my mouth open, just so you know -- but if you think about it, Supervision has you look honestly at your own performance. That's a skill that a lot of professions don't embrace. It's scary, to listen to your own coaching, to have somebody listen to it, and tell you what you did right and what you could have done better. I mean, that is a level of growth that I think only coaching can offer because it is so raw and honest, and it's offered in a sense of, "This didn't work. What could be better?" A "Yes and..." instead of a "Yes but..." Instead of a "Boy, you screwed that up" it's really about how do we grow from here? Very much in the spirit of coaching, which is about development, not about remedial action.

Alex Kudinov   Now that you mentioned it, I absolutely must ask. I'm an introvert and I think it helped me in coaching to keep my mouth shut and not to jump in and not to kind of do these pauses, and sounds, and all that. How does introversion work for you in coaching?

Sara Smith   When we talk about an introvert/extrovert, their preferences. They're not absolute abilities. So I had to recognize my preference to have a motor mouth and tell it to stand down when I'm coaching. I like to think that I'm actually a pretty quiet coach and letting my clients talk. Here's the thing that's probably appropriate for Agile coaches, is that when you know the difference between professional coaching and Agile consulting, and you know which hat you're wearing, then you have access to both and it is more powerful because -- I coach executives and I do a lot of leadership training as part of that but I contract with them, so that they know that I am a leadership trainer, and I'm a coach, and I'll be distinct where I am in our conversation. That allows me to say, "Okay, do you really want my advice or do you want me to coach you?" or here's a coaching question, "Who do you need to be to make that work?"

Alex Kudinov   Contracting as a separate competence looming large in every coaching conversation and every engagement. So I want to pull back a little bit. Ss we're talking, we're talking about changing profession and change in knowledge. Change sounds like, it's the only thing that is permanent these days. So and what we see in Agile world, especially as we talked about the professional coaching is somewhat lacking in Agile space, is that yes, we bring a lot of change consultants, Agile consultants, they tell people how to do their work, and it may change something for some time. Then they leave and it seems like change leaves with them. So something to say for change management, change sustainability, change stickiness. So in your mind, how does coaching and ICF research around that helps with change sustainability and kind of change stickiness in the organizations where they need it?

Sara Smith   What a great question and let me borrow from some of the language you used. When an Agile coach comes in and tells people how they should do things differently. Remember that analytical part of the brain? You tell me what I do what I, I should do, and I'll do it exactly that way. And then I'll wait for you to tell me the next thing to do. And my heart may not be in it. I may not give a care. If an agile coach comes in and says, here's some things we've tried, here's some things that work better. What would work better in your environment? And you get engaged and employ in? Oh, well, this would work. Now you've got them on the creative side of their brain. Now they own the answer. It's not the Agile answer. It's their answer. And if you put your agile hat back on and say, let's try it for three weeks and measurement. No, notice how that subtle difference change becomes. It's the stickiness this sustainability is in the hands of the people of the client of the employee of the person working. I worked with, with a manufacturing industry, one of the lowest rungs on the business ladder, you know, these guys, extruded metal, which is a hot, dirty piece of work, supervisors decided that they ought to have nice pads on the floor. Because it would make it easier for them to stand an eight hour shift. Put these pads down. And the the guys on the in the third shift, moved them all to the corner. Like who put this thing here? Get them out. So they moved the ball out of the way. Now they would have made working easier. Nobody asked them. So they backed up and they tried it again. They said so do you ever get leg fatigue? Do you ever get leg cramps? Oh guyver I was terrible. What my fix it? Well, those nice padded things. Okay, why don't we get some. And all of a sudden, it was their idea. And they stayed down. And and issues with back problems and leg problems got less. That's how it works.

Alex Kudinov   So it's one of my favorite sayings. Nobody can resist the change. They helped co design. Exactly. And so we talked a lot about credentialing and training. ICF membership is different than credentialing. Yeah. So how does membership bring value to me?

Sara Smith   membership up from just some tactical things. Membership gives you free access to all the research. It gives you free access to all of the communities of practice, and and all of the activities in the global arena. It gives you discounts and credentialing it gives you discounts. And we have an event called ICF advance that happens every two years, which is to bring the best thinking coaching and non coaching to coaches to to improve our base of knowledge around the human condition, discounts around that and and access to recordings later. That sort of thing. And it gives you the opportunity to be a part of that. That effort of professionalism in the world. I've been a member since 2001. I can't tell you that I got tremendous value every year. But I can tell you that in 2021 the organization is having a lot more impact on coaches operations. communities, you know, to get hired to get paid and on a salary to, to differentiate themselves from, from people who would be coaches. That's part of what we're investing in a professional, invest in their profession. And and I encourage people to do that.

Alex Kudinov   So Sarah, beyond like encyclopedic knowledge about coaching and ICF, I also hear a lot of passion for the organization passion for this professionalism that organization brings to the industry to the market, what keeps that what keeps that far going, in you

Sara Smith   the the growth, the changes that we've seen that the, I see the value in my clients. Now, I have a group of clients I work with on a regular basis. And I've had the the privilege to travel around the world, and to see coaches around the world making a difference. Sure, you ask the value of the ICF. If I am contacted, and someone says I need a coach in Peru, I can help them find a good coach in Peru or Beijing, or Malaysia. And I'm privileged, I often know those people. But I also know the quality of training that they've had. I've seen some some difference makers in the Mideast that are just breathtaking. Making differences in in, in countries that turned on the side of totalitarianism and to make a difference. So, there, there are a lot of proof points, they're everywhere. And, and just to reiterate what I said about as professionals, I think we ought to feel a responsibility, not just to sit back and say, What are you going to give me but to be a contributor, not just to consumer, our clients or consumers, we're professionals. And we have the opportunity in this profession that's now been here for 26 years, that's almost no time at all. We have the opportunity to make significant changes in in how the profession is and works. And I've watched coaches do and I watched three coaches get the European Union, a subcommittee to approve a definition of coaching. That was the ICF. Yeah, that was like eight years ago. It's like, Okay, so what difference does that make? That's still the definition of coaching in the European Union?

Cherie Silas   Well, Sarah, it's been wonderful. hanging out with you. I can, I can literally talk to you all day for a whole week. It's wonderful hanging out with you. I've enjoyed the time with you today and in the past. Thank you for your passion. Thank you for your wisdom. And for what you're bringing to the world the change that you're bringing both to coaches and to clients. So we appreciate you. Hey,

Sara Smith   can I can I plug one book? You can that? It's been? It's really recent. It's called coach the person, not the problem was written by Dr. Marsha Reynolds. She has a degrees in psychology. And she's an MCC coach. And she has written the best work explaining these things that we've talked about, you know, what's the difference in the client? What's the difference in you? What's the difference in the results? It's really a brilliant work. And everybody I know who's working toward their mastery and coaching. I'm pointing them to that. Because it is so well written and so helpful.

Alex Kudinov   We love it. We tell all our students that one of the books that you have to read. Yes again, we Marsha will be on our podcast. Excellent.

Sara Smith   She's she is brilliant. And and this work. I've I know a coach who is a writer. And she said, this makes sense. This is so well written.

Cherie Silas   Awesome. Yeah. Sarah, it's been wonderful. And everyone This has been tandem coaching academies keeping agile coaching nondenominational. Thank you for listening. I'm sure we silence your host with Alex coode mouth. Goodbye. Thanks.

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