Alex Kudinov Hello everybody, this is Tandem Coaching Academy’s Keeping Agile Nondenominational podcast ane we are your hosts today, Cherie Silas and I Alex Kudinov and we have Claire Pedrick joining us today. She is an ICF MCC and she is the Founder and Managing Partner at 3D Coaching. Hi, Claire, how are you?
Claire Pedrick Hi.
Alex Kudinov So you are probably very good at introducing yourself and you’ll do a better job than I would ever do.
Claire Pedrick Well, that’s interesting, isn’t it? I could say all sorts of things about myself and whatever I say you’ll assign me power or not. So actually, first and foremost, I want to say I’m a human being; I’m a normal person who just happens to have conversations with people. I am an MCC. When I stopped counting my coaching hours in 2012, I had 11,000 but I gave up because it was hard work. So I’ve got a lot of hours. My passion is to really help coaches be amazing and I was mentoring somebody yesterday, who’s an aspiring MCC, and she said, “These competencies are overwhelming me.” I said, “Well, let’s just go through them, shall we?” and I went, “Well, that’s about partnership. That’s about being normal. That’s about not saying very much.” So I think it is my life’s mission now to go, “We just need to do a bit less and we need to enable other people to be great.” That’s what I do in my coaching business. So I work globally and a lot of what I do is developing coaches to be better coaches. I also do some coaching, coaching supervision, and train coaches globally. So that’s kind of me.
Alex Kudinov It is really good to have you here and we know you just published his book, Simplifying Coaching, and it sounds like a very loaded title. It sounds like coaching needs to be simplified. Oh, it so does. It’s so does, let me tell you about my books. It’s so funny. So it’s called Simplifying Coaching. They’ve just printed the second edition because it sold really quickly and I was out for a walk last week with a friend, and she said, “Why have you chosen to spell simplifying wrong?” I said, “I haven’t chosen to spell simplifying wrong.” and she said, “but you have” and I’m going, “No, I haven’t.” So we’re out for a walk, socially distanced, I’ve got Amazon on my phone, and I’m going, “Look! It’s spelled right.” and she’s going, “I’m sure it isn’t.” So when she got home, she sent me a photograph of the spine and on the spine of the book, they’ve spelled simplifying wrong. Oh, no. I love it. I love it. I told the publishers, “Don’t change it. I love it because it’s not perfect.” I think that we get into this strange aspiration that we can do the most marvelous, perfect coaching and, actually, great coaching is actually saying, ‘What’s the least that I need to do in service of somebody else having new insights about their own stuff?’ I think because coaching is an industry, and because you can make a lot of money from a tool or a technique, I think it’s just lost its way a bit and I think we need to get back to the bare bones, which it’s one person facilitating the thinking of somebody else. That’s all it is. So this is my kind of life’s work now. It also sounds like the path to mastery kind of goes through simplifying stuff and actually working less, which is kind of weird. Shouldn’t Masters work more, and kind of work hard, and be those gods on the heel and know everything? Please no. Because it’s about who needs to be amazing. The person we’re working with needs to be amazing. So, for me, the path to mastery is about being more courageous, being braver, saying what we see earlier, letting them do most of the work, and absolutely noticing when transformation happens. I think one of the real issues about coaching is that if I’ve decided that I’m going to use a technique with you, there are now three of us in the conversation. You, me, and the technique. I’ve got one eye on the technique, to just see how it’s going to fit in, and then you have a moment of transformation and I don’t see it because I’m too busy working out how to get the technique in. So I think we don’t see. Transformation happens a lot in conversations and I think we miss it.
Cherie Silas Yeah, I would agree. You know, as I listen to you say that, I think about coaches that I’ve trained, and they always get into this space of, “I can’t figure out what to do. There’s so many competencies, I don’t know what to do.” They’re so focused on the competencies that they can’t coach and I just tell them, “You know the competencies. Let’s throw that to the side; forget about it. Don’t think about it again. Listen to your client.” So I’m wondering, what are some of the things that you help newer coaches understand about this ability to help people transform by actually doing less work?
Claire Pedrick So I think it’s about creating a container for the conversation. So one of the things I love about the ICF competencies is that early competency, which is establishing or maintaining a coaching agreement, actually is about creating a container for the conversation. The thing about containers is that in science, if you want transformation to happen, you put a whole load of stuff in a container and apply a catalyst. Maybe an easier metaphor is baking. So if you’re a baker, or a cake maker, you put all the ingredients for the cake in a container, you mix them up, you apply heat, and the thing changes form. The thing about a cake is, you can’t unmake a cake. Can you? You can’t make it back into eggs, and sugar, and all those things; it’s become something new and something different. If you think about the ICF structure as a container with boundaries, with a beginning, a middle, and an end, then actually it makes the coaching much easier to manage. You just think, “We need to do the beginning. Now we need to do the middle. Now we need to do the end.” I think the thing I love about the ICF, is quite how obsessed the competencies are about working in partnership and of all the global professional bodies that I’ve looked at, the ICF is the only one that talks about partnership but unless we do working in partnership, we’re doing too much work. So let’s work in partnership.
Alex Kudinov That’s an absolutely fascinating metaphor with container. What’s coming up for me. So I put all these ingredients in there, I put that in the oven, and I set the temperature and the damn thing just blew up. So, what do you see coaches do to make that thing go and blow up in their face and in the face of their clients? I think we put too much in. I think we think that added value is doing more, and knowing more, and adding more. Actually added value is about getting them to do more and notice more. I think we work too hard and I think that’s what makes it blow up. I also think we make it about us. “Oh my goodness! We’re nearly at the end of the session and we haven’t had transformation. I must do something now!” It doesn’t work. Deep in the ICF words around mastery, which I so hope stay there when they go into the new competencies, it says, ‘The coach trusts the process more than they trust themselves.’ That, my friends, is the answer to mastery, I think. I love that line.
Cherie Silas Yeah. Trust the process. Trust the client; they know what they need. I hear you talking a lot about transformation. So, transformation versus…what?
Alex Kudinov Transaction I would say, Cherie. So transformation, going back to the cake, is something that you can’t unmake. So it’s about people having new insights into their own stuff and I think often in coaching, what we do is we turn it into a date. So we ask people a lot of information about themselves. Now I know a lot about you but you don’t know anything you didn’t know before. Now you think that coaching is a date. So, next time we meet, it will be really hard to change the dynamic of that and get you to do some work. So I think transformation is about people having insights and we need to do less for that to happen.
Cherie Silas So, do less so that people can get more transformation.
Claire Pedrick Yeah.
Cherie Silas It would be helpful for me to understand, what does that look like in practice? So I know you’re not saying the client comes in, and I just sit there and say, “You talk and you can pay me when we’re all done.” So what does it look like?
Claire Pedrick So it looks like lots of things. I think one of the biggest things is that to see what it looks like, we need to move our focus from the coach to what I would call the thinker. So I have a bit of an aversion to words that don’t describe partnerships. So I, personally, don’t call the people we work with clients or coachees because it makes it feel as though I have more power than them and I don’t. There’s an equality in the process. So I think it’s about often aspiring coaches, and coaches on the journey to becoming better, try and seek out other coaches that they can watch coach. So they watch somebody coaching, and they go, “Oh, that’s amazing, I need to integrate some of that into my coaching.” I think we’re looking in the wrong place because I think if we want to do really transformational coaching, we need to start watching thinkers think and beginning to really notice when they are processing and getting new insights and when they’re not, so that when we’re the coach, we can really, really, really respond to what we see. So what that might look like is, it might be that you are asking the best question in the world and your three words into this amazing question. The person who’s thinking kind of goes, “Oh!” At that moment, they’re ready to run with your question and you need to stop talking. The only thing that’s being achieved by you completing the question is your desire to prove that it’s a very good question, because actually, the first three words were amazing. So one of the things that I love about this virtual world, where most of us are engaging on screen most of the time, is that you get a much better view of the impact the thing you say has on somebody else. You can really see in a second if they go, “Oh!” and I want to say if you want to become a great coach, watch people go, ‘ooh’, and then stop talking. It’s amazing.
Alex Kudinov So to expand a little bit on these amazing questions. We’ve been fighting this idea that coaching is only about asking great questions. Especially in an Agile world where ‘powerful questions are the king’, if you have the lease of competency to ask powerful questions, you’re an amazing coach. So what I’m hearing, you’re saying that it kind of goes a little bit contrary to that idea. I also saw a lot of our students, and a lot of people, kind of collecting long lists of great questions they can ask and they can go just like, “Oh, this is the question I need to ask.” What’s your take on those lists?
Claire Pedrick Unless we see the person who’s thinking as a fully equal partner in this conversation, we’re actually saying that we don’t trust them. So imagine this is my useful question box. So, there’s you, and me, and my useful question box. So I go to my 2000 great questions I have. So I asked a question of you, Alex, and while you’re answering it, I’m going in my head, “Now where was that was a great question?” and what that means is that I am paying attention to looking for the next question and not paying attention to what’s happening in you. Two things are happening. One is transformation may be happening and I’ll miss it. More significantly, when I come back with my great question, when I have accessed it from my very good resource, it’s probably missed its moment. So it might have been an amazing question when it came in but you’ve moved on. Now instead of being in partnership, we’re out of sync because I’m on a different track with my question from the one that you’re on. If you’re having transformation on yours, why would I change you onto another track?
Alex Kudinov So it’s interesting. We started doing these podcasts just recently and I told Cherie the other day how different it is from coaching. I hear all these fascinating ideas that you or other guests give us and I want to go after each and every of those. Please don’t. *laughs* Yeah, and the thing is, in podcasts, I can because it’s about our listeners and it’s about, also, my curiosity. That’s probably different from coaching. In coaching, you hear a lot of these things. You’re like, “I need to ask this, this, this, and this.” How do you go and balance all of that? So my definition of coaching is — well I have many but they’re all a bit simple but one of them is — it’s a conversation where someone feels heard and gets new insights into their own stuff. So in the Progress Principle by Amabile and Kramer, they say that any progress is progress. So I think we have a fantasy that we need to cover off all the things that have come up. Actually, Amabile and Kramer’s research says that if people start moving forward, they keep moving forward. So it’s not all our responsibility. The great thing about coaching is it’s about getting some movement, I think. There is all that other stuff about accountability and everything else, but it’s actually about them getting some movement. I think we take too much responsibility for the thing, and we talk the language of empowerment, “I want to be a coach because I want to empower people.” but then when I do too much work, what I’m actually doing is I’m taking their power away from them, which is actually the opposite of what I say I’m trying to do. So it’s tricky.
Cherie Silas Tricky it is. So you know, what else I think sometimes we find tricky is, how do we ask questions that are responsive to what the client is saying, rather than digging in our little bag and finding other great questions?
Alex Kudinov I would say abandon the need for grammar. So great questions come from what we see, hear, or sense. So I would say that the best questions are often to say what you see. So I’m doing a brand new training program with a whole bunch of people in public health. Today, something went wrong and one of them ended up not in the breakout room; she ended up with me in the lobby. So I said to her, “Well, why don’t you coach me?” and she’s “Gahh” I’m going, “well it’s nothing special” you know? Oh come on, you’re an MCC. You’re supposed to coach, not other way around. So she coached me and she was really good. Now part of it was fear that she didn’t know what to say. So her not saying anything really gave me some insights because I had fear somewhat myself. We were about halfway through and she said, “It feels like a catch-22” and immediately I had this massive response in myself, “Well, I’m not going to let it be like a catch-22! So what am I going to do about it!?!” and in that question, it feels like a catch-22, that set me off on a path that gave me a really good new insight because all she did was say what she sensed.
Claire Pedrick So questions come from four places, I think. What we see, what we hear, what we sense, and what we read in a very good book or saw somebody else do. If we can really get back to saying what we see or hear or sense but without it needing to make sense — so I think some of the best questions are totally unrepeatable. Yesterday in a training session, again, really early on in their coaching, like five or six hours into coaching, they’re drawing, one of them’s drawing their situation to give them some new insights. She said to her colleague, something like, “It doesn’t make sense” and her colleague said, “What came before that picture?”, which was totally based on what they saw in the room. They came back to the group afterwards, there were tears, “It’s changed my life!” and she’d asked a question based on what she saw in the moment. That question can never probably be used anywhere else and that’s what makes a great question; it’s the right question in the moment, in that time, and in that place, and in that conversation, but it’s probably not usable elsewhere. Which is really annoying, because we have to lose some amazing questions but another one will come.
Alex Kudinov Well, otherwise, you need to throw away your basket. I think you do need to throw away your basket. There are some structural questions, like in the ICF, the establishing and maintaining agreements, the “What are we doing today? How are we going to do it? How are we going to know we’ve done it? How are we getting on? Is this useful? What else do we need to do?” So questions about ‘What are we doing together’ are useful and you will use them a lot. The actual questions about the content need to be, I think, specific in the moment for the person. Otherwise, we’re just not quite in harmony.
Cherie Silas Yeah. So I know, Claire, that in the coaching work you do, you tend to be really concise in your work and in your sessions. What I’m sensing is that the conciseness around the coaching agreement, which is, ‘Get in there; figure those things out. Use the two or three questions’, it’s really about, ‘Let’s get that out of the way so we can get into the bigger transformational piece.’ Am I reading that correctly?
Alex Kudinov I think it’s about getting to the heart of the matter before you start diving in. So, if you don’t do that, you might fall over the heart of the matter in the middle but if you don’t ask somebody at the beginning what that is, and they know, then you’ve been exploring without boundaries for no reason. Sometimes, I’ll say to somebody, “So what would you like to bring; what would you like to think about today?” and they go, “I don’t know.” I say, “So how will you know, at the end of this session, it’s been useful?” and they go, “I don’t know.” I say, “What’s the best way of doing the work?” and they go, “I don’t know.” Then I say, “Where should we start then?” and they go, “I don’t know.” This is great! Now we know that we don’t know what we’re doing, and we have agreed that between us, and that’s partnership, but often coaches behave as though we don’t know what we’re doing but we never actually asked them what they wanted to do at the beginning.
Cherie Silas So I’m now really fascinated with your example of, ‘We don’t know what we’re talking about. We don’t know how to get started.” and then what? I would love to hear how you handle that.
Claire Pedrick Well, usually there’s some stuff going on when that’s true. So I might say to the person, “Why don’t you just download what’s going on, and then we’ll work out what we need to do today.” That download might take five minutes; it might take half an hour. What I will not do is I will not I will not coach or dive into their stuff until we clear what’s going on and what we need to actually work on today. So I think often what happens is that coaches dive into the stuff before we’ve agreed what we’re doing and the biggest risk in coaching is that people answer the questions they are asked. So you and I are having a coaching conversation, Cherie, for example, and you say, “It’s really difficult here in lockdown.” That’s the conversation in the UK we’re having all the time. You might not be in lockdown but it might be about the election, or whatever, and then I start asking you questions about that. That might not be the thing that you wanted coaching on today and it might not be the thing that’s the most important, but I’ve dived in; if I dive in, you’ll follow me. So I think the skill is to be clear, what’s the work before we start doing the deeper work? I think otherwise we accidentally lead, and I think as coaches, we accidentally lead a lot, and, actually, a great stance for coaching is to be slightly behind them so that they’re leading.
Alex Kudinov So that’s interesting. How do you match that with coaching being a partnership?
Claire Pedrick It is a partnership, but often– so it’s a dance, I think. So, in a date, you say to me, Alex, ‘Tell me all about you’ and I go, ‘This is my life, I’m telling you all about me. Now tell me all about you’ and that that’s a date. So in a dance, you keep changing the dance, but you check in with each other all the time that that’s the dance that you want to do. So, in the UK, we have Strictly Come Dancing, in the U.S. I think it’s Dancing with the Stars, where you have a celebrity and a professional dancer. The people who win are completely in harmony, they change the dance, and they go with it. So, when they do the winning dance at the end, or when they do the going home dance, everybody claps for them, then they do a little dance. Then, even though they haven’t practiced it, they actually know how to be together and how to do something that’s beautiful. At the beginning, though, they kept standing on each other’s feet, and one of them is trying to do something, and somebody else is trying to do something else. That’s often, I think, what coaching can look like and that’s not our intention; it needs to be really fluid. I would say that, if you know what you’re doing in coaching, you’re not coaching because the point is that we don’t know.
Cherie Silas I love it. So, Claire, I hear you using a lot of metaphor and it brings the question up in me of, how do you actually use metaphor in these conversations with clients? Is that something that comes up?
Claire Pedrick Well, the great thing about not having a lot of questions in your bucket is that you can really notice. So some people will bring metaphor up. They will use a metaphor or they’ll use something physical. So they’ll say, “It’s big”, using their hands to express how big it is. So if they use metaphor, then I’ll follow it. Sometimes I say, “It sounds like…” or “It feels like…” So that lady said to me today, ‘It sounds like a catch-22’ but sometimes that doesn’t work. Sometimes metaphor doesn’t work for somebody; they just won’t pick it up and then you just leave it. So I say to somebody, “It feels like a box of chocolates” and then they go, “Yes, and it’s got a ribbon, and it’s got this kind and that kind.” So, often they’ll pick it up. So, I think the skill is not to make them do metaphor in the same way that it’s actually not to make them do anything, but to offer. So every question I would say is like an offer, rather than a tell. So, “It feels like a box of chocolates?” “No.” or “Yes and…” so then they pick it up and run with it.
Alex Kudinov Hmm it sounds like all these skills, using metaphors, and using these types of questions — that when you offer it rather than telling it, rather than imposing your observations, intuitions, whatever else there — it does require a trust but I want to look at trust from a little bit different perspective; not building trust and intimacy in terms of the competency. What we deal a lot with in Agile world is that Agile coaches are more consultants than coaches and it’s only recently we started realizing that professional coaching skills, and this, stepping back and letting team figuring out themselves, and actually trusting the process and trusting the teams, are much more efficient than telling them what to do. We have a lot of clients that come from that consultant background and they’re really having a hard time letting go of knowing and letting go of not trusting the team to do the right thing. Sometimes they are in a responsibility kind of bind; ‘I’m responsible for this outcome.’ So how do you go about building this trust to your client and building this trust to the team? There’s something about building trust to the team and there’s also something I think about timing. If the team wants you to give them the answer, they can feel if you want to give them the answer. You could go through the process but they know you want to give it to them and you know they want it. That’s really tricky. So I think there’s something about timing. We had a really interesting journey. So I was working with head teachers. These head teachers are mentoring aspiring head teachers. What was happening was the aspiring head teacher was saying, ‘Tell me how to do it. Tell me how to do it.’ So the head was just telling them but they were giving them too much information and not really answering the question. So, I think this thing that we talked about earlier, about the coaching container, that container is useful for any relationship. I think the real question in consulting is how much information you give, when you give it, and how quickly you give it.
Claire Pedrick So Peter Levine, who’s done a lot of work on trauma says that trauma is too much, too fast, too soon. I think that in hybrid engagements, so coaching and consulting, often, the consultant will give too much information, too quickly, and too early. So the real thing is, if it is going to be useful to offer something, it’s really important to be very clear what their question is. So, you’re actually giving the right amount of information at the right time, because otherwise consulting can feel like a tsunami. We might really like it at the time but we can’t do anything with it because it came too much, too quickly, and too early; then it’s gone. So there’s something about if you’re going to drop in information, it’s about dropping like it comes out of a watering can. Is that what you call it in the states? Watering can, a thing that you use to water the garden? So it comes out gently, like out of a watering can than like a tsunami or a firehose. So I would say that when we stopped saying to people, “You mustn’t put anything in” and said, “It’s actually about timing”, then they started not putting anything in because they would wait until the right time and then the people didn’t need it.
Cherie Silas I love that one. When I hear you talk about consulting, it also tells me that often consultants, it’s about them. They’re giving what they want to give and what they have a need to give rather than what the client actually needs to receive.
Alex Kudinov Yeah and that’s about selling; selling my idea. Actually, it’s about not giving the answer until you’re really clear what the question is, I think.
Cherie Silas So whether we’re in coaching or consulting, you talked about this information overload, almost like people can drown. So I’m wondering, when we’re doing transformational coaching, sometimes that can go really deep and the client can kind of feel like they’re drowning. They can only take so much before it’s just too much. So what’s your take on how you handle that?
Claire Pedrick Well, that’s a really good question. So I once did a whole day’s coaching with somebody, transformational coaching, and it took both of us forever to recover. It was awful. It was awful. I had a headache for a week. It was terrible because actually it was too much. It was just too much. You can only take a certain amount of revelation, can’t you?
Cherie Silas Yes.
Alex Kudinov So I would say I often finish sessions early, if somebody has had a piece of transformation, there’s something about giving them permission that they don’t have to stay. So I remember years ago, I did a two hour career transformation conversation with somebody. I can’t even remember what we were talking about, except I remember after 20 minutes, he went, “That’s blown my mind” and I said, “What do we need to do now?” and he said, “I don’t know” which I receive as, ‘That’s probably enough but I don’t think I could leave.’ So I said, “Look, we can carry on, if that’s useful but I wonder whether the most useful thing for you to do is to go away and live with that insight” and he went, “Can I do that?” and I went, “Yes, because you’re the customer. Of course, you can go” So, I said, “Do you know where you’re going to go” and he said, “I need to go and be on my own.” I said, “There’s a Starbucks up the road. If it’s useful, there’s pens and paper; here, take them with you.” He texted me later and said it changed his life. We never had another session, because we didn’t need one. So, I think there is something, when we’re doing transformational coaching, to actually recognize that when somebody’s had a major insight, you’re not still in the court in the coaching agreement you had at the beginning of the session; you’re in another chapter or another book and actually the most, the most generous thing at that moment is to say, “We can carry on if you want to, but actually, if it’s useful, we can stop and you can just live with that insight.” It’s amazing. If I may turn it a little bit to round, and that’s for a customer, that’s for a thinker, to take in a little bit of insight and then go and do what they need to do with that. From a coach’s perspective, especially kind of aspiring coaches who just start on this journey, What I see a lot people just start drinking from this firehose of sacred knowledge, reading hundreds of books, going non-stop or even like to parallel classes, learning about systems coaching, and individual coaching, and Clean Language, and whatnot. How do you talk to these coaches about balance; what’s most useful for them? So I can remember, a long time ago, getting a call from an insurance company, and the head of learning and development wanted to make sure that their coaching program was compliant. That’s interesting, isn’t it? Insurance company, “Is our coaching compliant?” So what she’d done, she had done a Supermarket Sweep of Amazon, and got 20 coaching books that she’d read and now she’s in a complete state of panic. If you read coaching books, one of them says drive on the left; one of them says drive on the right. One of them says you must do this; one of them says you must do something else. One says you must…their all…it’s just all this stuff. So we need to — I said this to my colleague last week, she said we should have deleted it off the podcast but I’m going to say it — we need to go into the coaching room naked. Not literally. We are not deleting this. That is for sure. We are expecting the person that we are working with to be vulnerable and explore deep stuff. We are needing to go into not knowing space, we need to go in with nothing in our pockets. The development we need to do as coaches is about, what do we need to do to develop presence that allows us to do that? Because it’s all very well going in with tools and techniques. Sometimes tools and techniques are good, sometimes. You have to believe that the person who is with you is your number one tool. Otherwise, we’re pretending we’re magicians. Somebody said to me the other day, “You must get somebody to tell their whole story before you coach them because as they tell their whole story, you can begin to analyze” *pauses for beat* “analyze…based on this and the other.”
Claire Pedrick I’m going, “You’re not trained to be an analyst, you’re trained to be a coach. You’re trained to facilitate the thinking of somebody else. So what’s the least you need to do to be able to do that?” I think often, and particularly early on, we think it’s about the stuff. It’s not, it’s about the space between us. Of course we need some insight. Of course we need some awareness. Of course we need to do development, because we need to make sure that we are really on the ball but too much staff and too many techniques and techniques that we finish off, don’t work. So here’s another story. So this guy, he’s doing NLP, do you have that in the states? Neuro-Linguistic Programming? So I have been invited in to watch them. The coach is coaching. So he’s coaching this woman, she has a dilemma, he asks a really good question and says, ‘Shall we go and stand in the future’, so they go and stand in the future. She’s standing there and everybody who’s watching, me, and the observer, see this woman go, Ka-Ching! The light bulb goes on; you can see she’s had this most amazing insight. He’s not looking because he’s working out what he needs to do next in this exercise. So the exercise then goes on for the next however many minutes, at the end of which, she’s lost it because her insight was like fifteen minutes ago, and she’s bored with him now because he’s dragged her around the room.
Alex Kudinov It’s like going back to what you said before the were three of them in that coaching session;
Claire Pedrick Completely
Alex Kudinov The coach, the thinker, and the tool. The tool seems to have one. Yeah and the tool won over her greatness. The tool won over the thinker’s insight and greatness and that’s such a shame, because it was such an amazing piece of coaching but he didn’t need to finish it off.
Cherie Silas I would have let let the tool go
Alex Kudinov Something to say for vulnerability — I don’t remember where I heard that or where I read that — somebody said that, ‘Vulnerability is the first thing I’m looking for in you and the last thing I’m ready to give you.’ That’s something, I think, for every coach to remember and maybe incorporate in their approach to working with their clients, with their thinkers. So, Claire, the book, the second edition, the misspelled spine. What’s next for you? I’ve got a few other books up my sleeve but actually, right now, what I’m doing is developing coaches to be better. So we run a coaching practicum, which is an opportunity for training and experience coaches, to watch thinkers thinking. So in the practicum, coaches do practice coaching but they’re only practicing coaching so that everybody else can watch the thinker thinking. That’s where we do our absolute best learning. So it is my desire and my passion in life to just release coaches to do a whole lot less work, to spend a whole lot less money, and to just give people space to feel heard and get new insights into their own stuff. I think my big passion right now, in a pandemic world and in a post-pandemic world, is that coaching is future-focused and it’s optimistic, and don’t we need that more than any other time in history? My passion is to be part of that. So how do our listeners who want to partake in your passion and all those great courses that you have, how can they contact you or get in touch? So the website is www.3dcoaching.com. If you like words, spoken words, we have a podcast called ‘The Coaching Inn’ and the book is Simplifying Coaching which is published by McGraw Hill. My name is Claire Patrick, and I’m also on Twitter, @3dclaire. If you are looking for her book, make sure that the spine is still misspelled. Indeed, otherwise, you’re on edition three. I like it though. I like the misspelling. Oh, that’s perfect! Thank you so much for joining us today and we could absolutely go on for hours talking about competencies and your absolutely fantastic views and insights. Hopefully our listeners found them as fascinating as we did. We’ve been talking today with Claire Pedrick. She is the Founder and Managing Partner at 3D Coaching. Cherie Silas and I Alex Kudinov, we’re you hosts. Goodbye Bye.